Nope. Nope nope nope.

Written by Natalie Luhrs

I'm a lifelong geek with a passion for books and social justice.

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April 28, 2014

So this happened (screencap in case it disappears).

And I went:


Then this happened (second verse, same as the first).

And I went:


Then people said smart things:

So now I’m all:

robin hood


mr rogers bird


nope rocket


And hey, if you want to listen to me and Justin Landon on the Hugo nominations on the Skiffy and Fanty Show, well, your wish has been granted! This was recorded the evening the nominations were announced and was a lot of fun.

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  1. Veronica Schanoes

    I fundamentally don’t understand people who think it’s even desirable, let alone possible, to keep politics out of, well, anything. Politics is about who holds power and who suffers the consequences. It is practically the most important thing there is. Why on earth would you want to keep that out of a genre of literature? Are you trying to make it the blandest, most boring sort of literature imaginable? Why would you want to keep it out of the discussion of that literature? What would there be left to talk about? And how could you imagine that a discussion of merit could ever not be political?

  2. Craig Laurance Gidney

    A few years ago, John C. Wright wrote what could only be called hate speech about gay people, using the usual gay=bestiality pearl clutching rhetoric ramped up to 1000. Now that he realizes his toxic POV is no longer wildly popular, he’s taking his toys and going away. Of course, he doesn’t mention THAT he was a bellicose bigot.

    And the Instapundit piece completely ignores that Theodore Beale is an abusive white supremacist in order to make some vague point about “freedom of speech.” That Monster-Hunter dude was , in my humble opinion mostly collateral damage; by hitching his wagon to the white supremacist train, he looks like an apologist. (And if you can’t figure out that “I want small government and guns” is a whole universe away from “blacks are half-savage,” you’re a fool).

    I am just amazed at how both Wright and Instapundit ignore the elephant in the room–especially since the elephant is in blackface and screaming homophobic and sexist slurs.

  3. tigtog

    This particular line from Correia’s screed made me chuckle:

    People who believed this stuff physically avoided me at [my first] WorldCon because they’d been told how I was unsafe.

    By “this stuff” he means the information that Correia was a loud and proud religious conservative and guns rights activist, which was “true stuff” about Correia then and now. His assumption that people avoided him because of safety concerns is smug and most unlikely: I personally would avoid him at a con simply because he’s a low-priority target for my limited time for mingling with authors whose work I like, and I would expect that to be the same for most others. People avoiding him purely from ideological purity concerns back then were likely to be few, given that he was brand new, even though some folks were making a fuss on the internet – they just didn’t know who he was, so they preferred to chase authors whose names they did know.

    He has claimed many times that he’s a “nice guy” in person (whatever “nice guy” is supposed to mean), – I have no doubt at all that he is perfectly capable of observing the social niceties, so if I was part of a group chatting and he joined it because he knew somebody else in it, I wouldn’t walk off in high dudgeon so long as he was indeed being “nice”. If he started crowing about how he’d shown up the SJWs though, I would indeed be pointedly walking off with a departing remark about going in search of less tedious conversation.

    From what I’ve read there is only a small subsection of regular WorldCon fans who go year after year after year. Most years the attendees are there because this time it’s being held in their region or this time they are particularly excited about the guests of honour. Most of the supporting members are folks who just like getting the voting package so that they can read all the nominees and then have an influence on which one gets a gong.

    As nominees, I’m sure that Correia and Beale will both be at LonCon3, standing there radiating smug anti-PC-ness to the max. I have no doubt that many normal attendees who don’t have any idea who they are will nonetheless feel their spidey-sense tingling that there is Grand Gesturing afoot, and will choose to pay attention to other GOH instead. That is not about either of them being unsafe, it is about them being tedious.

  4. Yamamanama

    This is like the Great American Interchange of whackadoodles.

  5. Natalie Luhrs

    @Veronica Schanoes: I don’t know! It seems so clear to me that it’s all interconnected. But I think, perhaps, people who belong to groups which have often held the power don’t recognize that and think that because they aren’t being affected negatively that politics aren’t affecting them.

    @Craig Laurance Gidney: Yep, those are two different categories. Sometimes they overlap, sometimes they don’t. I don’t think making alliances with known toxic individuals is a good long-term career strategy.

    @tigtog: I’ve heard tell that he is a nice guy in person but that he REALLY loves his guns. If I were in attendance at the same con as Correia, he likely wouldn’t be on my list of people to meet or hang out with but I wouldn’t go out of my way to avoid him either. I have too much other stuff to do at cons! (I would, however, go out of my way to avoid Vox Day. Cut direct all the way.)

  6. Anya

    I can’t stop laughing about how dear Mr. Wright wants an organization of men and is hoping to work with some of these men in the future. He does realize he is just proving our point right? I kind of hope they do form their own organization since it’ll make it easier for me to check which authors not to buy books from.

  7. Yamamanama

    They have their own publishing house, and I am disappointed it didn’t fall apart within a week.

  8. delagar

    I noticed that too, Anya!

    …all fair-minded men….

    ….men who treat each other with professionalism….

    …men whose work I read with pleasure and admiration….

    I mean, we know he doesn’t think women are people, or writers worth reading. But yow, that’s blatant.

  9. hapax

    I boggle at those supposedly intelligent writers/readers who don’t understand that stories that fail to challenge the status quo are inherently *incredibly* political.

    Look, Aristotle laid out the choices millenia ago. You’re either a political animal, or you’re just a featherless biped.

  10. Bluestgirlblog

    I am so confused when people talk about the good old days, when men were bold and wrote real science fiction without any of that tedious politics diluting the greatness of their imagination, and then put Heinlein on the list of old greats.

    Um? Have they *read* Heinlein? Isn’t Stranger in a Strange Land *totally* a book with a social & political message? (And while we’re at it, isn’t this the same crowd who all have dog eared copies of Atlas Shrugged on their bedside tables?)

  11. Beatrice_Otter

    Politics shouldn’t be in SF/F. Er. Um.

    Well, completely leaving aside the racist and sexist and homophobic stuff completely, I have something to say about politics in SF/F.

    At the first-ever Worldcon in 1939, there was wank over politics that got a group (the Futurians) booted for being asses. I am not clear on the details, but in some fashion it seems to have involved whether SF fans should be actively pro-Socialist and anti-Fascist. If that is not political, I do not know what is. That was the very first Worldcon. Clearly, politics have been part of the SF/F world since the very beginning. Therefore, this argument makes me go o.0

  12. Uncle Byron

    If it’s true that a Hugo win can generate more sales for a book, are publishers going to be keen on having their writers ally themselves with someone like VD who’s the Donald Sterling of SF?

    • Beatrice_Otter

      Oh. Oh, myyyyy. I hadn’t realized until your post that Vox Day’s initials are VD. Like, venereal disease? It so suits him! (Sorry that this has nothing to do with your excellent question, but I couldn’t resist.)

  13. DameB

    @delagar: THIS! In my mind, I heard his voice reading this aloud and the “understated” stress on the word every time he said “men,” a slight emphasis that he thinks is dog-whistle subtle but is, in fact, exactly what we’re talking about. If all you want to do is work with and read men, then that’s politics.

  14. jennygadget

    @ Anya, delagar, and DameB

    I also noticed, rather belatedly, that Instapundit’s piece begins with the line “A writer shouldn’t be punished for his political beliefs.” (emphasis mine)

    He then goes on to mention only white, male science fiction writers. One of whom was a known serial harasser/groper. (I noticed THAT right away.) At no point does he mention that the “politics” of one of the people in question consists of both rampant white supremacy and the repeated assertion that women are incapable of writing science fiction. (Which, as was pointed out in the debate at the time, is rather relevant to one’s ability to serve on a committee whose job it is to judge the literary quality of speculative fiction titles. Why yes, VD was involved in the Nebulas one year.)

    I think it’s pretty clear whose “politics” these fools think deserve protection, and who they think doesn’t deserve any kind of protection – or even basic respect -at all.

  15. Adam Lipkin

    Beatrice —

    I actually use “Venereal Disease” to refer to him on Twitter, if only to avoid any of his vanity searches. And it just feels more honest.

  16. Cora Buhlert

    As for Correia worrying that people were avoiding him, because they considered him unsafe – well, first of all, the reason no one was all that interested in him was probably because no one knew who he was at the time and his books aren’t the sort of thing the usual WorldCon attendant reads.

    Besides, Correia is a guy who makes a big deal out of the many guns he owns, who uses words like “target-rich environment” (referring to the zombie apocalypse) and who has a near cult-like following. Add to that his unpleasant online persona and he honestly wonders why people might feel unsafe in his presence. Because at least from my European POV (where “Keep away from aggressive people who might have guns” is standard advice for anybody travelling to the US and with good reason, too), the persona Correia has created for himself online sends up all sorts of “Avoid at all costs” red flags. He’s probably perfectly harmless in person, but I’d still stay away from him. As for VD, given the hateful crap he spouts regularly, I’m not sure if he isn’t actively dangerous rather than just an armchair warrior.

    Regarding the flounce of John C. Wright and his wife (who wasn’t even an SFWA member, but decided to flounce anyway) as well as Torgersen, don’t let the door hit you on your way out, folks.


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